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Topic: all the qualifications & not even an interview
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| rochelle, rochelle | Posted – 5/22/2008 1:12:22 AM | show profile In early March I applied for editor of an alumni mag. (see, Media Issues bulletin board, "What to do after sending cover letter & resume?" 3/20/2008). The ad for the job had very specific qualifications, all of which I met, including "at least 10 to 15 years of related experience." I followed up with a phone call to hr to make sure they received my application; they had and forwarded it on to the hiring manager. A few weeks later I emailed the hiring manager, reiterating my interest in and qualifications for the job and offering to take any writing or editing tests/assignments that might further exemplify my abilities. With still no response, I summoned up my courage and phoned the hiring manager who told me that they had barely begun reviewing resumes (that was April 17) and that they would definitely be getting back to me?one way or another. I thanked her for the info, commiserated over the difficulties involved with juggling ongoing job responsibilities while looking for appropriate job candidates, and also restated my enthusiasm and qualifications for the job (blah, blah, blah). Anyhoo, today I received a "form email" from hr stating that they "selected another candidate who better meets the qualifications and requirements for the position." Look, I know that the hiring manager owes me nothing, but I was so astounded by not even being called for an interview, I called her to ask why. (I'm usually not so ballsy.) I let her know off the bat that my intention was not to put her on the spot but to find out what my resume and cover letter were not communicating (or what they were communicating unintentionally!). She said she'd take a look at my application and get back to me. I thanked her and said that I understood this was not a high priority for her, but that I'd appreciate any feedback she could give me. I'd like to hear from others who've had similar experiences?especially those of you who've been in this industry for upwards of 20 years. I've been feeling that my experience has become more of a hindrance than an asset and my confidence in my abilities is at an all-time low, so I need a lot of compassion, support, and suggestions. (I haven't worked in quite a while.) Thanks in advance to all of you! |
| WordyBird | Posted – 5/22/2008 2:20:31 AM | show profile Old salt here. Not sure how to say this without sounding cranky, but... wow, you actually got a rejection note? That's more than most people get. The fact is that there's a glut of talent for precious few jobs. It's not unusual to receive 200 resumes for a position, sometimes a whole lot more. It's not necessarily that you're not qualified. It's that they found someone they felt was a better match. Or they may have hired from within. Or someone in the company might have had a friend with qualifications like yours who was looking for work. In the current market, the tiniest edge is the difference between landing an interview and hearing crickets. Seriously, though, I'm surprised you got a rejection notice. It's rare nowadays. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 5/22/2008 2:38:58 AM | show profile | email poster Could have been something as simple as that person was an alum, or they lived nearby, or were a known entity from another organization, or they have a masters in alumni magazines, or they already worked there and were promoted and the posting was a formality only, or they were a founder of the Alumni Magazine Association of America. Wordy's right. How many alumni mag ME job openings are there in a year, nationwide? And how many people are interested in those few? Loads. Among those, a few handfuls may be qualified. A preponderance of experience is helpful to a point. I do think some less bright hiring managers worry that they won't be able to teach old dogs new tricks, which is one reason to abbreviate your resume to the last 10 or 15 years (or less) only, if you're concerned about that. (You and I know we've benefited from our years greatly.) The other thing to consider is that more contact -- did you get it? when will you decide? did you see my experience is a direct match? -- isn't necessarily better. I'd limit that to one call to make sure they got the resume (if they didn't send a note confirming) and leave it in their hands, following up only if it went on for months without hearing. You don't want to come off as being entitled (like Katherine in Working Girl, "I am, after all, me") You may never know (they will probably never tell you) just what made that person who got the job more perfect for the job than you. But don't be discouraged. Remember that applying for jobs is like sales -- it's a numbers thing. Keep tailoring your material, of course; get some advice about making your resume more sleek, more standout, whatever. But don't put your hopes in one basket. I have a friend that does this a lot "I'm so perfect for the job," she says, sure that the resume will turn into an interview which will turn into a job offer which will result in a job. Then she's disappointed when they've picked someone else. |
| Sam Waynewright | Posted – 5/22/2008 8:21:10 AM | show profile all the qualifications & not even an interview Hey flummoxed, I feel your pain. I know that this doesn't help really, but try not to take this personally. A lot of us are in the same boat, with lots of experience. But here is the deal -- generally speaking, as a society, we are getting more and more light weight. When was the last time you saw and ad seeking an "experienced" or "seasoned" editorial person that was not followed by "with three or more years experience." The fact is that publishing companies really don't want very experienced people these days because they are too busy laying them off or giving them buy-outs to go away. And why waste time taking to experienced people who will want a certain level of salary, when there are hoards of very young people that will work for peanuts. The only real hope, is that this current down turn will lead to a lot of people who are not really passionate about this field to move out of it. If there is a large outflow of editorial people, both older people and new ones who want to make better money, then there is a chance the the field will once again re-open for more experienced people and at better salaries. Perhaps their value will be realised and appreciated. In the meantime, as someone else has suggested, I would keep your CV short, dropping off anything that goes beyond 15 years because there is a good chance that HR people will only have been ten years old at that time and she will wonder, "Wow, like they already had computers then, too? Cool!" |
| jcpatterson | Posted – 5/22/2008 9:54:45 AM | show profile No consolation, but I was in higher education for many years before switching to freelance writing, and in HE I always joked that if I was absolutely, completely qualified for the job as defined by the position posting, I would definitely never get called. This did happen several times to me, including one time in which I applied for a university registrar position for which I matched the description point by point, and I finally got the form rejection letter an entire year later. An alumna of the university who had stayed in touch with the gossip told me that an internal candidate has been tapped for the position ages before, and they just had to go through the search process for legal reasons. In other words, it happens. If you do get a call back from someone who offers you constructive criticism, by all means assess it and take it for what it is worth, but if not, try to not let the whole experience sour you. There is always an element of randomness, or at least of factors not under our control. |
| mad fingers | Posted – 5/22/2008 10:51:30 AM | show profile Or, you do get the call for the interview, which goes really well. Get called back for several follow-ups, including meeting the whole staff, which seem truly promising. Really get your hopes up... and then they hire the internal candidate they were planning to hire all along, leaving you feeling like you've been sucker-punched in the gut. Hang in there.... |
| Louisewasnothalfbad | Posted – 5/22/2008 11:30:56 AM | show profile Maybe an internal hire? Or maybe the candidate had been selected long before and the ad was just a pro forma move? But calling to ask "why not me?" isn't going to net you anything. No one is going to give you any real answers, and the blahblahblah speak that you might get isn't going to be helpful and now, after bugging the hiring manager 3 times, you're looking a little desperate. (Not to us here, but in the world of HR, 2 phone calls from an unsuccessful candidate is a bit much.) Know anyone who did get an interview? Sniffing around your network might be more productive |
| Suet | Posted – 5/22/2008 11:33:37 AM | show profile | email poster or ... ... you get a form letter saying the position has been filled, and then see the job advertised again two weeks later. What's up with that? It has happened to me twice in the last 3 months. |
| AWC | Posted – 5/22/2008 11:34:36 AM | show profile I certainly understand your frustration, but just about everyone I know has experienced the same thing sometime during their career. There are many, many possible (and valid) reasons why you were passed over -- and you'll probably never find out why. I've worked for two different universities in the past. At both places, it was HR policy to publicly post job openings and accept resumes even if they had already determined that a current employee was going to be promoted into the open position. And alumni definitely had an advantage in the hiring process at both places -- in fact, that's true of most all universities. |
| Grateful Deadline | Posted – 5/22/2008 11:49:43 AM | show profile If the hiring manager gets back to you, expect the explanation to be brief and sunny, to avert legal issues. |
| RockinRonD | Posted – 5/22/2008 12:26:49 PM | show profile | email poster Make Your Own Am I the only one who thinks this whole process of applying for salaried positions in publishing has become little more than a degrading, humiliating, ego-obliterating pointless process? I completely agree with another poster who opined that truly experienced writers/editors are the last thing magazine HR people want given their high (probably only reasonable) salary demands. Let's face it, if you've got more than 15 years in publishing, your attempts to leave the freelance life for a full-time position are at your own peril. The bar has dropped considerably on the quality of candidates who get these jobs, as has their age. |
| foodlit | Posted – 5/22/2008 12:36:38 PM | show profile Remember, this isn't personal, it's just business. I'm a headhunter, and can honestly tell you that one of the most frustrating things about what I do is that at the end of the day hiring is the most subjective thing you can imagine. I have right now an amazing candidate that i adore and thought I would have placed in an instant...he's been on three interviews at one of my clients, and has rave references, is beyond perfect and qualified, yet they are just not 'in love' with him. He hasn't 'wowed' them. Yet they can't pinpoint one thing they don't like about him and have even admitted as much. He's not going to get the job even though on paper he's perfect for it. He just didn't 'click' as well with everyone as other candidates have. That's par for the course unfortunately. Your qualifications on paper may seem to be ideal, but you don't know how many other resumes they are reviewing, and you don't know one of the key factors...given that you didn't get an interview, it's very likely that they either have someone in mind for the job, or have a somewhat different vision of what they want that is different from your background. Then again, it's so random, that if they just have a huge pile of resumes, all qualified, they may screen them randomly, picking out people who worked at certain companies or went to certain schools that they like, or even, scheduling the first few resumes that they received and keeping the rest 'on hold' as backups in case no one in the first batch is suitable. There's just so many random things that can affect whether or not you get hired or even get an interview. So, all you can do is keep plugging and get your stuff out there. Follow up as you did, but I would refrain from calling and asking 'why you didn't get an interview'. That won't help your cause, and could actually hurt it. It's a fine line between being aggressive and being a pest and turning people off. Being proactive in a good way is applying with a short, sweet cover letter in the body of your email. Waiting a few days, and following up with a short, sweet voicemail making sure your resume was received, be sure to let them know exactly when you sent it, as that makes it easy to find and in that short voicemail mention a requirement or two that you have , such as ten years experience with xyz company. The goal is to entice them to find your resume immediately. Know also that if you have much more or much less experience than required in the post that could work against you. You would think that if a job requires 5 years experience and you have 15 that they'd be interested to get that extra experience, but its generally not the case. If they specify 5 years experience, that's what they want...usually because it's the appropriate level for the role and may report into someone with 7 years exp for instance, so the fear of the 15 year person is that they'd be bored in the role, not excited and challenged, and the dynamic of the 15 year person reporting into a 7 year person may not be ideal. |
| dribbledrive1 | Posted – 5/22/2008 2:37:04 PM | show profile I don't think it's publishing per se. I've heard many similar stories from friends in other industries. --Am I the only one who thinks this whole process of applying for salaried positions in publishing has become little more than a degrading, humiliating, ego-obliterating pointless process?-- |
| ConfidentDesigner | Posted – 5/22/2008 2:37:18 PM | show profile Yes, I've had almost the exact same experience many times. Basically the industry wants a 25 year old with 30 years of experience that will work for $35K/year. Period, end of story. I have decided to not dwell on that sort of thing and just move on to someone who WILL consider me. Energy well-spent this way. In the end, they'll get what they pay for. |
| rochelle, rochelle | Posted – 5/22/2008 5:14:14 PM | show profile Thanks for the feedback, especially RockinRon and ConfidentDesigner. A couple of points I neglected to mention: the job was posted EVERYWHERE, which usually means no internal/predetermined candidate and the alumni mag is for a professional school with a very specific niche in which I have training and experience. Also, the ad specified at least 10 to 15 yrs of experience, so abbreviating my res. seemed unnecessary and even detrimental. Surprisingly enough, hr wasn't the problem; they were actually quite helpful. I don't expect to hear back from the hiring manager (who's not from hr but from the u's pub dept), . As I mentioned, I've never done anything like that before but given the unique qualifications the job seemed to demand, I just needed more of an answer, even if in reality I wasn't owed one. I know that all of the above means nothing. The outcome is what it is. Thanks again for all your responses. At least I know I'm not alone in my frustrations. (BTW, what's with this board and ASCII codes? It seems that when I type "alt+0151" to create an em-dash, it becomes a question mark when the message gets posted.) |
| Suet | Posted – 5/23/2008 10:21:14 AM | show profile Don't forget the roles of nepotism and cronyism in keeping qualified people from being hired (and keeping unqualified people in jobs that could be filled by qualified people). A corporation can have rules in place to limit this, but those rules are often disregarded, especially if there is a friendship or other type of alliance in place. |
| RockinRonD | Posted – 5/23/2008 10:39:32 AM | show profile | email poster Nepotism Lives Incredible as it may seem, at some publishing companies nepotism is actually encouraged. I've witnessed this; a subtly veiled ploy in my view to have whole families working for a company so as to keep them from leaving for a competing company. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does often result in a qualified candidate losing out to somebody's cousin or in-law, regardless of their resume. |
| popa_licious | Posted – 5/23/2008 11:27:31 AM | show profile I worked for a publisher where a division president had an ongoing "extramarital arrangement" with the head of a small division. The division president kept the department head from being fired for incompetence on three separate occasions. The company was riddled with people's spouses, "partners", children, stepchildren, etc., especially the ones who were there on a freelance basis. Also, the senior vice president had the good fortune of having a friend who happened to be the best qualified individual for a vice president slot, despite having absolutely no relevant experience. Said individual was responsible for Internet products... and thought there was a separate Internet for the Macintosh. Sorry to derail your thread slightly, it's a case of grin and bare it, and I commiserate with you. |
| rochelle, rochelle | Posted – 5/23/2008 6:33:51 PM | show profile Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the practice of nepotism and cronyism, along with the inability to recognize incompetence, has become ubiquitous? Seems like the "bushification" of America has lowered the bar to new depths. All of which makes me want to crawl in a hole. Unfortunately, hole crawling doesn't pay the rent, and besides my dog would probably just dig me out! Sorry about the digression, most likely the result of repeatedly beating my head against a brick wall. By the way, popa_licious, humor is ALWAYS appreciated! |
| jseconds77 | Posted – 5/23/2008 7:14:45 PM | show profile you're lucky to get a rejection letter. I've driven from one state to another(over 3 hours) for an interview and have to actually badger them to get a rejection letter. I can at least say...some places really do play games; attract resumes to re-evaluate a "job" that doesn't even exist! no joke...OR for a job that they know full well won't be available for months. So my motto....don't advert. for something that doesn't exist yet. as in, could you imagine walking to a car dealership with nothing on the lot and salespeople accepting car loan apps? makes no sense to me. |
| PluckyPane | Posted – 5/23/2008 7:50:34 PM | show profile oh man, papa_licious, that's the story of my life. i left a small company where the entire circ dept was 3 generations: grandma, mom, and college-aged kid. oddly enough, when one was sick, they were all out because only momma drove. they were out a lot. i reported to the brother of the president. my boss also managed his own brother who was a sales guy, whose girlfriend reported to me (who was immune from being fired even thought she was as dumb as a brick). my favorite was still when the sales director brought his wife to work with us, then dumped her, fired her, and promoted the admin who he was sleeping with to her position, but then he got fired, she dumped him and was promoted to his position. and they say soap operas are fiction. |
| seeattleme | Posted – 5/23/2008 8:39:58 PM | show profile Flummoxed: Cronyis? Nepotism? Welcome to the business. And it's why the business is DYING. I don't mean to be cold. But I ain't gonna be all Pollyanna on your ass. Welcome to the Biz. I was there. Two possibilities: They posted the ad to see what approximately they could get away with hiring and paying the candidte. 2. they decided not to hire anyone for the position, because just recently the ad page report came out for all magazines and everyone is in Deep Deep Shit. Even Cosmo! But rather than say that, because it reflects poorlyon the company finances, they send out a form letter. Probably cause you kept calling. (not to say you shouldn't have, but just to say that's why.) 3. After posting the job, someone's nephew or favorite student (ie fuck buddy) chimed up for the job, and got it. 4. It was internal hire after someone saw the posting and made a fuss. It's the industry. It's the way of the world. It's unjust and it's why print is sucky and dying. DYING. Let it go. Continue to apply for jobs, focus on the alternative weeklies, the regionals, the papers. Do non profit work. Planned Parenthood or SPCA would probably hire you. You are right to be angered by this, but you will be vindicated when such and such goes under (print, the person who got your job, whathave you) and you are viable because you diversify. |
| Will work for food | Posted – 5/26/2008 9:39:04 PM | show profile | email poster I hear you, I feel for you -- and I'm going through it, too! Hi, Flummoxed: I feel your pain! I was laid off from my book publishing job unexpectedly two years ago and have not been able to find a fulltime position since (my MS in journalism seems to prevent me from getting assistant jobs, or jobs others deem low, but I would take in a second, and going into book publishing left little time for writing, so it's difficult to get writing jobs!!). I'm making my living as a fact checker when I can get the work and as a temporary assistant at other times. Right now I am going through what you have just experienced: a position has opened up where I believe I am a really qualified candidate, meeting all the criteria, etc. It's been over a month, April 16th, since I had a director there (someone who worked with him suggested I contact him first -- no cronyism here, I swear!!) send my resume to the appropriate people. I've called twice to see where they are in the process and right now a department other than HR (Development, I believe) is reviewing resumes. I have seen the job posted three times in the past year and know that the person who most recently had the job left because it wasn't a good fit. But maybe it would be a great fit for me! Anyhow, don't think I'm going to be called for this one, and I guess, like always, it's a matter of keeping on keeping on. So, Flummoxed, hang in there. It's all a matter of timing. At least I hope it is. |
| Chamsah | Posted – 5/26/2008 10:03:49 PM | show profile You're lucky! I also don't mean to sound flip, but you should consider yourself lucky if this is the first time this has happened. I've got 15 + years in the biz and have been laid off three times. Each time, I had a hell of a time getting back in. In fact I'm in that spot right now, having been laid off last year. I was replaced by a kid a few years out of college. Talk about depressing, I agree with the whole cheap, inexperienced labor explanation. In fact, I've been writing about that frightening trend here on the boards since my layoff. How many of us have "replaced" by cheaper, junior hires? (Which of course is totally legal. Right.) And seen ads that are looking for senior/exec editor experience for kids five years out of college? I can't tell you how many interviews I've gone on where my former position is paying at least 40K LESS, and my experience is seen as a hinderance. Pathetic. I could say they get what they pay for but the problem is, no one seems to care. It's not quality anymore, it's buzz, newsstand sales, and getting the Britney sex tape. They don't need to pay people fairly to get any of that. I am sorry that you are going through this, especially at a pub that steers clear of all that BS coverage. The combo of the internet and the hunger for cheap celeb coverage has been eating away at our industry. I am not sure it's going to turn around anytime soon, either. Anyway, good luck and hang in there. |
| rochelle, rochelle | Posted – 5/26/2008 11:35:58 PM | show profile | email poster Will Work and Chamsah: Thanks so much for letting me know I'm not alone, but that doesn't help any of us earn a living, unless we can figure out a way to turn unemployment into a profit-making venture! I can't stand seeing in print the number of years I've been out of work, but I've got both of you beat (believe me, I'm not boasting). My last full-time job was horrible--THE most dysfunctional place I've ever worked. It was like being in an abusive marriage. No matter what I did, how hard or long I worked, it wasn't good enough. I put the publication back on a timely schedule for the first time in years, I redesigned the website so that it could actually be updated, got letters of thanks and offers to share bylines from contributing writers whose articles I reworked, but nothing was good enough for the creeps I was working for. And the real kicker: They were in the field of human rights! You know how, in the recesses of your heart, you harbor doubts about your self-worth, intelligence, and your professional skills and abilities? Well that job brought all those fears and doubts to the surface and then confirmed them. Needless to say, I've had difficulty getting "back on the horse." But necessity is beginning to outweigh fear. I just need to apply for everything that I'm remotely qualified for or vaguely interested in, so that I don't put an exaggerated amount of importance on one job. If either or both of you would like, you can email me, and we can continue this conversation offline. Good luck to us all! |
