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Topic: Fox refuses to release "N!GGER" uttered by Jackson
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| Guyarthurthomas | Posted – 7/18/2008 11:11:04 AM | show profile Fox News is refusing to release the video and audio of the hate speech *(Jackson's own categorization of this word, not mine necessarily) uttered by Jesse Jackson when he used a form of the word "nigger" to describe black people. The debate will never end until blacks understand whites understand MOST BLACKS DO use the word and those of us non-blacks (the majority of the population) know why you use it, sometimes offensively and sometimes comradely. However, non-blacks ALSO use it sometimes affectionately and offensively. The problem is dual. 1. A majority of blacks want an exclusive right to use this word. Sorry, you live in a PLURALISTIC country. Cultural distinctions, while having their origins with one race or ethnic group, in a country like ours cannot RATIONALLY be viewed as something that MUST be maintain and owned only by that group. 2. People are simply going to have to lay down their socially toxic PC and understand "nigga" and "nigger" are going to be uttered by blacks AND whites. But incredulously everyone wants to pretend blacks don't use that word. They do, you fools. Even Jesse Jackson got caught in the truth. While pretending he wants to eliminate the word, HE USED IT. He is the consummate HYPOCRITE. He should just admit he uses it. The problem again is that blacks CANNOT expect to use the word exclusively. There are many non-white youths that have come to use the expression, "my nigga" as a generic term for someone they consider a friend, a part of the group and so on. There is the realization where it came from but in general, it is used with the SAME AFFECTION that blacks have when using it. And blacks should be CELEBRATING, not being made because they have CHANGED the use of the word. And it isn't just youths but middle aged people that use it with the same affection. Yes it is street vernacular and so its use by state officials or significant social personalities that seek to example the highest order of things is unwise. But the protest over the use of it by non-whites is ridiculous. In fact, FOX News should release the tape and let people decide. Fox News wants to pretend they are protecting Jesse Jackson when in reality they are hurting the truth. Seeing Jesse use the word he pretends to hate in the context most blacks use it would do more good toward honesty than harm. |
| chucho | Posted – 7/18/2008 12:21:03 PM | show profile I think George Carlin already addressed this. It's not the words; it's the spirit behind them. I can see the difference between a black person using the word nigger as a term of endearment (as it is most often used, if not in this case), a white person calling a black person a nigger as a racial insult. I also have faith that you are not stupid, but rather disingenuously not admitting that you, too, can understand the difference. Assuming Jackson used the term (while talking to another black man) it could have been a toss-off "that nigger's gotta back off" or something like that. In a way, not showing the tape has it's advantages for Fox. I don't think "protecting Jesse jackson" is one of the primary motives. I think Fox gets more "ratings capital" out of not releasing the tape. In addition to perpetuating the topic by being a player in its own news story (and an opportunity for legions of conservatives to spew the old "liberals are the real racists" platitudes), I think there is some degree of building false expectations here that are advantageous to Fox News whereas "protecting Jesse Jackson" is not. I would have been happy for them to have played the whole tape instead of artificially extending the expiration date of "the latest big outrage" for conservatives to get their panties in a wad over. |
| chucho | Posted – 7/18/2008 12:23:47 PM | show profile PS: Jesse Jackson hasn't been an player in progressive politics since he had a big afro and Betty Davis was on the Hot Parade. He's been on borrowed times ever since, getting a bump in his rating when he held court with the Clintons. I bet his own son -- who has criticized his father over this -- would tell you the same thing in confidence. The fact you seem to hold Rev. Jeckson as some mover and shaker in the liberal establishment is reflective of your ignorance. |
| al medio | Posted – 7/18/2008 4:46:33 PM | show profile The word is a relic of the past and needs to be put behind us all. I believe in free speech yet the violent reactions you face for uttering this word outweighs it's usefulness. I myself have used the word in anger with one of my mates, then we had a little scrap but thankfully we put it behind us and stayed close friends. In my opinion there is no positive use for the word no matter what race uses it, and if you are in the public eye and use it God help you because nobody else should. |
| chucho | Posted – 7/19/2008 1:08:12 PM | show profile So, you yourself have used the word in vain against a (presumably) black person? That's never even crossed my mind. My mom almost slapped me the first time I uttered the word (when I was nine, to nobody in particular). And yet I'm sticking by the George Carlin standard: it's just a word, it's the intention behind the use of the word that matters. I can think of many, many examples for using the word "nigger" in a satirical sense that would in fact undermine the use of the word as a racial slur. Most recently in an episode of "Curb Your Enthusiasm" a couple of years ago. But I agree, if we're to retire the word (how?) then it should be retired by everyone. The thing is: when it comes to the use of the word in rap music, that's nothing compared tot he way rap music (often) celebrates misogyny, thuggish behavior and ridiculously crass consumerism and label worship. If I had to choose between banning a word and toning down the other BS that is celebrated in hip hip music (by black artists who celebrate the ghetto while themselves sneaking out and buying houses in rich neighborhoods in Connecticutt -- like 50-Cent did). I think the celebration in black music of infidelity, stealing, guns, murder, domestic violence, the objectification of women and really tacky interior design is more damaging to AfAm society than one little word. |
| Shasta | Posted – 7/20/2008 10:46:55 PM | show profile I live in Chicago and Jesse is so over, though I can't see that he ever really did anything after his affiliation with MLK. He's a PR monger who is more concerned with trying to stay in the spotlight rather than trying to find a solution to the endless murders, poverty and countless other problems that plague the black community. I'm a White Northside girl and truthfully he doesn't affect me. He's irrelevant to both whites and blacks at this point. |
| mkelly | Posted – 7/21/2008 9:56:38 AM | show profile Someone please cut this discussion thread. Everyone already knew Jackson said it, Fox would accomplish nothing by airing it except showing off poor taste, and Fox did the wise editorial thing (surprisingly) by not airing it. Everyone also knows Jackson is just whining because a new generation of black leadership is shoving him aside to irrelevancy. He's acting out like any bratty four-year-old. So is the OP of this thread, who just wants to be a white guy who gets away with saying the N word. Please be quiet; acting out is annoying to those of us who don't feel the need to do it. |
| Stanley_Milgram | Posted – 7/21/2008 10:42:31 AM | show profile i'm curious how many more ways Guy can contrive to post the word "nigger" all over this board. |
| chucho | Posted – 7/21/2008 1:38:24 PM | show profile "socially toxic PC" I love that phrase. Whenever I hear this platitude from the conservatives I am reminded of a conversation I had once with the late Kurt Vonnegut. We talked about being politically correct and his point was this: "Whenever I go fishing with my friend Betty Friedan I call her a 'fisherperson' because it's better to sound awkward than to be rude." And that's pretty much what being PC is all about. If calling someone a "cripple" is going to be offensive, then say "physically disabled". If a woman prefers to be called the gender neutral "flight attendant" than "stewardess" then what harm is it to do so? This stupid, ceaseless criticism of PC from the conservative peanut gallery is just one in along series of disingenuous arguments put forward by people who have been responsible for some of the most racist, intolerant acts in American history, from opposing federalism during the Civil War (and the slavery ban) to McCarthy witch hunts to supporting the ban on women's suffrage. If it weren't for LIBERALISM, women still wouldn't be allowed to vote, the south would still be filled with black indenture "nigger" laborers and cripples would still be living in the shed out back. Yes, these, too, are "just words" as I have mentioned before -- but being PC is simply about being polite. You don't call somebody "the N word" who will be offended by that. Two black due that toss the words to each other aren't being rude. But in almost all cases if my white ass uses the word at a black person, it will likely be taken as an insult. The bar here isn't some stupid across the board linguistic ban: it's simply about being rude versus being polite. |
| TheSecondShift | Posted – 7/21/2008 3:26:43 PM | show profile I am always amused when I hear the "why can't White people use the word nigger?" line. My question is always "Why do you want to so damned badly?" I'm very comfortable with the idea that homosexuals are free to call themselves fag and wouldn't necessarily appreciate my using the word. So I don't, plain and simple. It's not a struggle for me, I don't ache inside or kick up a fuss because of this limitation. There are double standards everywhere, but it seems to me, these are a few cases where striving for equality shouldn't be the goal. |
| writesonwater | Posted – 7/22/2008 12:42:44 AM | show profile | email poster i can call my sister a bitch, and have done so in a teasing way. she understands me perfectly. anybody else calls my sister a bitch, i'm not going to sit for that. however, the word bitch is out there and doesn't carry the horrendous connotations the N word does. I personally think it's an atrocious word, and the use of it is in exceeding poor taste; I'd prefer nobody use it. if a black person uses it in an artistic way (rap music, to make a point) I guess that's their prerogative. it says something about Jesse Jackson that he'd use it. I can't picture Obama using it, nor Martin Luther King nor Bill Cosby nor Oprah nor a number of other black leaders I admire. It may be a double standard, but if I hear a black person use it, I just think he's coarse and crude; if I hear a white person use it, I think he's racist. |
| Guyarthurthomas | Posted – 7/22/2008 10:21:50 AM | show profile Of course no one is able to address or rebut the most poignant observation that I made and that is the variation of the word "nigger" which is used in a friendly and brotherly context, namely the expression"my nigga". It has not only gained acceptance among blacks quite some time ago but among non-blacks. That particular variation no longer carries with it any genuine reference to skin color or social class. "My nigga" today is used by many ethnicities and races as a vernacular synonym for "brother" "friend" "good friend" and so on. It is a term of acceptance rather than one of rejection. And so it is here where the problem lies. No one disputes the hateful use of the word nigger. It is offensive. Should a career be destroyed because of its incidental or rare and regrettable use? Of course not. Some of course love to destroy the lives of others or attempt to for such slips. Look at Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. They attempted to destroy Richards and Imus' lives. And Jesse didn't use it in an affirming way but in a demeaning way. Yes, blacks can and do use the word in a hate filled way as Jackson did. So whether a black, white, or brown uses it negatively, that isn't being disputed. Of course the response to such a use is debatable. Some people as I pointed out, want a nuclear bomb dropped on someone's life for its use in the rare moment of human weakness it might be used. What a shame for such extremism. But there is another widely accepted use, so much so that the variation, "my nigga" has now outgrown and gone beyond use JUST IN THE BLACK community. It is now something blacks cannot expect to own. And frankly they should be happy. Something that once meant something negative now not only was turned as an affirming word in their own communities but is RECOGNIZED by other groups and used as an affirming term by them. And that is where the problem and controversy will lie in future discussions. And the fact is blacks and frankly all ethnic and racial groups who prefer burying their head in the sand, are going to have to come to terms with this reality. |
| noname1234 | Posted – 7/22/2008 11:16:51 AM | show profile So Guy, the gist is you, a whiter-than-white person, want a free pass to use the word "nigger" because it's either a) a terms of endearment or b) a momentary slip of the tongue that you shouldn't be called out for, right? Is just not using the word an option for you, or do you feel it's an essential part of your vocabulary? |
| chucho | Posted – 7/22/2008 11:29:51 AM | show profile Yeah, man, those blacks should just get their head out of the sands over this! Silly blacks. ;) |
| Guyarthurthomas | Posted – 7/22/2008 11:47:02 AM | show profile noname1234 Posted ? 7/22/2008 11:16:51 AM | show profile So Guy, the gist is you, ...want a free pass to use the word "nigger" ______________________________________________ noname1234, Obviously your reading skills are typical of a LEFTY LIB. I have made clear the word nigger is objectionable in its use and have made to statement that me or anyone desires a free pass to use it. I have observed that its incidental or regrettable rare use is no occasion to attempt to destroy someone's career and life because of its unfortunate use. Secondly, I have observed the reality of the use of "my nigga" by not just blacks but ethnicities and races outside the black community on a significant scale. My point, which obviously went above your head, is that its use (that being "my nigga" and not simply "nigger") has outgrown the immediate and positive use in the black community but has been embraced and now used without reference to racial or social class...but I already said that and made this clear, you simply have reading issues or don't wish to deal with this fact I have observed. Now you can stick your head in the sand and pretend this exists and clamor around that everyone but blacks should use the expression, "my nigga". But pal, in the real world many ethnicities and races now use it harmlessly and in fact with a view of acceptance and friendship. |
| Guyarthurthomas | Posted – 7/22/2008 12:03:20 PM | show profile chucho Posted ? 7/22/2008 11:29:51 AM | show profile Yeah, man, those blacks should just get their head out of the sands over this! Silly blacks. ;) _____________________________ Two things stand out here. 1. Your own racist orientation when you believe this is about "silly blacks". 2. That the blacks who are sticking their head in the sand and refusing to see the reality of the broad use of the term "my nigga" as a term of acceptance and friendship, isn't a legitimate issue. (though a reality nonetheless) for you to discuss. I, nor anyone is saying anything about "silly blacks". That is a general statement by you, that reflects your own views about blacks (and pal you could be black yourself and you wouldn't be the first black to hold such a negative view). My reference was CLEARLY qualified; it was about certain blacks AND other ethnic groups and races that REFUSE to accept this social evolution and prefer to bury their heads in the sand. But for you, chucho, all you could see is the context of racism because it is present in your own mind. A person who isn't genuinely racist as you manifest, would have at least in their sarcasm said, "silly people who want to bury their heads in the sand". Because I made it clear, it isn't JUST blacks but all groups that want to deny this and bury their head in the sand. But your response tells on you and your own racist leanings. Now if you want to continue to deny the social evolution unique to this word that has produced a distinction between the negative form, "nigger" and the positive form "my nigga" which in its evolution has now gone beyond just blacks using it but all ethnicities and races, well you're free to live in an alternate reality which requires denying the truth of social changes and evolution. But even more so, you, chucho, represent the cause of social alienation and retardation. You represent JUST WHY the racial dialog will never succeed. You can't accept the reality of the human condition nor the reality of social constructs that oppose your Utopian ideology. Hence, arguments are made with antagonism toward reality and not acquiescence to the truth of matters. You can't accept, along with certain people, that the term "my nigga" has found its way beyond the black culture and now has mainstream use by other ethnicities and races which use it completely void of a racial or social class context. But hey, again, pretend this isn't happening and continue wondering why you never succeed when attempting to have a dialog regarding racial issues in our society. Next Please! |
| noname1234 | Posted – 7/22/2008 12:36:39 PM | show profile Guy, I have no idea the point you're trying to make here. Is it that some black people use the term (or a variation of it) among each other, with a different connotation than the old-school white racist connotation? Um, yeah. I think that's well-established. Are you trying to argue that EVERYONE should be "allowed" to use it? As a white person, I have to say, I never really felt the need to use it -- nor would I feel comfortable using it, whether as a "term of affection" or an insult or in any other context. But if YOU feel that it's essential for YOU to use it, that's your choice. So again, what about this issue interests you? |
| noname1234 | Posted – 7/22/2008 12:43:12 PM | show profile Guy, can you give examples of people whose career was destroyed because they used the word? Please explain the context -- how and where it was said, how many times, what that person's history was in terms of racially controversial remarks, etc. -- and explain exactly what happened to their career, short- and long-term. |
| Guyarthurthomas | Posted – 7/22/2008 12:52:21 PM | show profile noname1234 Posted ? 7/22/2008 12:43:12 PM | show profile Guy, can you give examples of people whose career was destroyed because they used the word? Please explain the context -- how and where it was said, how many times, what that person's history was in terms of racially controversial remarks, etc. -- and explain exactly what happened to their career, short- and long-term. __________________________________________ I see you have no rebuttal for my post so I will repost it, in the mean time you can get your answer for the obvious probably from anyone over 14. But your common LEFTY LIB tactic of avoiding answering the charges and issues I have raised isn't going to work. Next please! __________________________________________ noname1234, Obviously your reading skills are typical of a LEFTY LIB. I have made clear the word nigger is objectionable in its use and have made to statement that me or anyone desires a free pass to use it. I have observed that its incidental or regrettable rare use is no occasion to attempt to destroy someone's career and life because of its unfortunate use. Secondly, I have observed the reality of the use of "my nigga" by not just blacks but ethnicities and races outside the black community on a significant scale. My point, which obviously went above your head, is that its use (that being "my nigga" and not simply "nigger") has outgrown the immediate and positive use in the black community but has been embraced and now used without reference to racial or social class...but I already said that and made this clear, you simply have reading issues or don't wish to deal with this fact I have observed. Now you can stick your head in the sand and pretend this exists and clamor around that everyone but blacks should use the expression, "my nigga". But pal, in the real world many ethnicities and races now use it harmlessly and in fact with a view of acceptance and friendship. |
| Stanley_Milgram | Posted – 7/22/2008 1:20:21 PM | show profile We're most eagerly looking forward to the publication of this methodologically rigorous field study of "Nigga Usage as Affection Signifier Among Non-Black Ethnic Groups" of which you speak. Should be the buzz of the Anthropology conference. |
| noname1234 | Posted – 7/22/2008 1:31:00 PM | show profile OK -- so what you're saying, Guy, is that in your view, "my nigga" is now an accepted term among people of all ethnicities to express affection toward each. So again, what response are you looking for on these message boards? I think most people would agree that the word today has different connotations depending on who's saying it and when/where/how -- some folks feel that's ok, others don't. Again, what's the issue here? What interests you so deeply about this? |
| Guyarthurthomas | Posted – 7/22/2008 1:34:09 PM | show profile Stanley_Milgram Posted ? 7/22/2008 1:20:21 PM | show profile We're most eagerly looking forward to the publication of this methodologically rigorous field study of "Nigga Usage as Affection Signifier Among Non-Black Ethnic Groups" of which you speak. Should be the buzz of the Anthropology conference. ______________________________________ Ya know Stanley, the sad thing is, if someone did this study the results would be silenced because the truth would be unbearable for you LEFTY LIBS who always want to construct an alternate reality to the truth. Your response would be, "My God, I didn't know its use was so broad and accepted, we must STOP this and contain it, it isn't politically correct". Next Please! |
| chucho | Posted – 7/22/2008 1:36:01 PM | show profile >> your Utopian ideology. << WHA?? What's more "utopian" than some over-simplistic concept that there are "forbidden words" and that all human beings use them the same way? What part of "if your white ass (assuming you have a white ass) calls a black person 'the N word' it's going to be taken as a racial insult in a way that it won't if a black person uses the same word to another black person." You're talking in "Biblical" terms about "forbidden apple" words with universal qualities and crap that doesn't work in the real world. I'm talking about the subjective motives and uses of the word. That's the opposite of Utopian. |
| instylegirl | Posted – 7/23/2008 7:57:01 PM | show profile Personally, I think it is disgusting for anyone to use the word, but what I truly find so interesting is how hard caucasians argue about their "right" to use it. If you are not racist, why would you want such a vile word, one which brings MOST African-Americans so much hurt and pain, in your vocabulary. If people wanted to wear t-shirts or arm bands with swastikas on them, would that be their right? Yes it would, but it would be tacky, classless and very insensitive now wouldn't it. |
| Guyarthurthomas | Posted – 7/23/2008 8:28:44 PM | show profile nstylegirl Posted ? 7/23/2008 7:57:01 PM | show profile Personally, I think it is disgusting for anyone to use the word, but what I truly find so interesting is how hard caucasians argue about their "right"... _____________________________________ Yeah, God forbid a CAUCASIAN fight for a right...you know, something BLACKS and minorities have done in the name of FREEDOM and JUSTICE. |
